MICAH Fisher-Kirschner and Ikenna Njemanze have plenty to say about Shanghai women. Both expat students from the United States, they are currently dating Shanghai women.

Surprisingly, the words "modern" and "Westernized" were brought up less often than the term "Shanghai pride." Though it is not surprising that, as in Beijing, there is a tendency for residents of the capital to joke about or look down on outsiders, apparently this phenomenon is even more common - and sometimes truly harsh - in Shanghai.

Micah, originally from Silicon Valley in California - an area with a large Chinese presence - had heard of the tendency before arriving in the city.

However, while he agrees "Yes, there is Shanghai pride, sometimes too much," he doesn't consider it a big factor in his current relationship.

However, both he and Ikenna have noticed that many Shanghai women make a point of not dating non-Shanghainese men.

As Western foreigners, did they benefit from some special status? In a way; Micah estimated that about half of Shanghai women are "willing to consider" dating a foreigner.

One factor is attention, as Micah points out that Chinese-Western couples get plenty of stares in the street.

Some girls seek foreign boyfriends because they like the attention, he says, but some will avoid dating and certainly won't marry foreigners for the same reason.

Ikenna also brings up the difficulty - occasional stigma - of breaking Chinese traditions by dating a foreigner. Having dated four Chinese-Americans, one from Taiwan, one with Guangdong parents, the differences Micah notes in Shanghai women are relatively few and subtle.

For one, "they are less willing to ask a guy out first than Chinese girls in the US." This isn't necessarily a confidence issue, but more likely "just cultural." Ikenna, who has dated several Shanghainese girls, thought this could be due to something else. "They're often really indecisive. It's hard to understand what they mean or want as a result."

The note of exasperation and humour in his voice comes from experience; apparently that kind of confusing communication has been a theme in his relationships here, once even resulting in being set-up with the wrong girl.

Ikenna, who spent a summer studying in Beijing before coming to Shanghai, had heard a more common characterization of Shanghai women. Compared to women in other cities of China, "They're the most Westernized," he says, elaborating by saying it includes both fashion-conscious and liberal attitudes to relationships.

There is a visible effort to imitate Western styles, which are perceived as looser than traditional Chinese styles. Micah added: "Sometimes, it's really overdone."

Skirts are shorter, shirts lower-cut, "public displays of affection" (a common American expression) are not uncommon. Ikenna also mentioned how he had noticed that in the attempt to conform to fashion physically, Shanghai women are overly concerned with staying thin. "They won't order a normal meal at a restaurant, they'll say they don't want to be fat."

Proud, Westernized and stylish for better or for worse, overall, Ikenna and Micah seemed to find the rumours about Shanghai women turned out to be fairly accurate.

Was there anything they were told before coming that turned out wrong? "I had heard that Shanghai was second only to Suzhou in terms of womens' physical appearance," Micah says with grin, "but I think it's the other way around."